Curse

Rising_Dusk · May 30, 2009, 04:26 PM // 16:26

So this is mostly to put forth a discussion regarding the role of the Necromancer in actual play -- PvE in particular, though I suppose many of the arguments I'll make will carry over to PvP as well. Anyways, I've recently been looking at many of the elite skill changes made to the Necromancer class and have been disappointed - not in a mechanical sense, but in a fundamental role-of-the-necromancer sense. The role of the Necromancer has changed since the beginning days of GWs and I'm sorely disappointed by it.

Let's consider how a few skills were before recent updates. I'd like to cite 3 examples here; Aura of the Lich, Cultist's Fervor, and Vampiric Spirit. Now I'm sure that many of you will agree that these skills are more viable now after their updates, they're more useful in a wider range of applications. That is a good thing. However, look at how their style has changed. They all went from utility enchantments to active enchantments (pardon terminology, just what I'm calling them). None of these are enchantments like they used to be.

AotL Before
Elite Enchantment Spell. You have half maximum life and take 50% less damage from all sources. When this ends, you get healed for X. Lasts Y seconds.
AotL Now
Elite Enchantment Spell. Exploit all corpses in earshot. Animates a level 1...14...17 bone horror, plus one for each exploited corpse. You have +1 Death Magic (5...37...45 seconds).

Before it was a utility for use with sacrificing, since it kept your life ratio effectively the same but reduced the amount you'd sacrifice per cast. It also made health regeneration a stronger partner in combat, since your life was lower. Altogether, the halving life was a strong utility for use with many, many other Necromancer skills. Sure, this made it unliked by many because it required thought and planning and didn't have huge 'kill everything in the known world' aspects, but that is not what a Necromancer is supposed to be. (Opinion, bear with me)

Vampiric Spirit Before:
Elite Enchantment Spell. Your Necromancer spells cost X more energy but you steal Y life from a random nearby foe whenever you cast a spell.
Vampiric Spirit Now:
Elite Enchantment Spell. Steal 5...41...50 Health from target foe. You have +5...9...10 Health regeneration (10 seconds).

See that change? Now it is a target cast life steal just like a dozen other skills with some health regeneration. Before it was a utility that required strong energy support for a lot of health stealing in an area. It was a unique mechanic, one that played a role in niche builds for PvE entertainment. It's utility was huge. Now, sure, I agree, it's awesome now, but it could have been made more awesome while keeping its previous utility aspect. That's my point.

Cultist's Fervor Before:
Elite Enchantment Spell. Your Necromancer spells cost X less energy but you sacrifice Y% life whenever you cast a spell.
Cultist's Fervor Now:
Elite Enchantment Spell. (20 seconds.) Your Necromancer spells cost 1...6...7 less Energy. You suffer from Bleeding (10 seconds) each time you cast a Necromancer spell.

At least this one stayed in the same vein, but still, it has issues. The Necromancer has a nearly exclusive mechanic in sacrificing, similar to how only the Ranger has preparations and how only the warrior and paragon have shouts/chants/etc. The Necromancer, however, has very few spells that cause sacrificing when doing anything other than just randomly casting that spell. This spell used to be a utility that turned spells into a sacrificing engine for other utility skills like Dark Aura and Masochism. That's what a Necromancer is, and that is what ANet seems to be stealing away with every elite skill update they make to a Necromancer.

If I wanted to play a pure hexer (I know, Curses, give me a break), I'd be a Mesmer. If I wanted to play a nuker, I'd be an Elementalist. That's because those are the roles given to those classes. The necromancer is a utility sacrificing & summoning class, one that provides utility to other classes and to itself. Blood is Power, Blood Ritual, Wells, Minions. I feel that we've got so many Minion interacting skills already, there's plenty of ways to go with that. What we need now is to return to the utility aspect of the Necromancer and get back to embracing what it is that makes a Necromancer a Necromancer.

Here are some quick ideas:

Rip Enchantment Now
5en, 1 cast, 10 reload
Spell. Removes 1 enchantment. Removal effect: inflicts Bleeding (5...21...25 seconds).
Rip Enchantment Suggestion
10% sac, 5en, 1 cast, 4s reload
Spell. Removes 1 enchantment.

Pain of Disenchantment Now
10en, 1 cast, 15 reload
Elite Spell. Target foe loses 1...3...3 enchantment(s). Removal effect: that foe and all adjacent foes lose 10...82...100 health.
Pain of Disenchantment Suggestion
10 en, 1 cast, 15 reload
Elite Hex Spell. Whenever target foe loses an enchantment, you steal X life from it.

Simple, but that's what a necromancer needs. It needs more ways to sacrifice life in standard builds and more ways to interact with its other skills. Necromancers have lots of ways to get rid of enchantments, so Pain of Disenchantment should really be a utility skill working with that. While we're at it, why don't we add more ways to interact with sacrificing? Let's bring back the old AotL in some form, its interaction with sacrificing was so huge and I miss it tremendously.

Random Elite Skill Idea #1:
10en, 1 cast, 30 reload
Elite Enchantment Spell. Whenever you sacrifice life, you sacrifice X% less. Lasts Y seconds. (Soul Reaping)

Random Elite Skill Idea #2: (AotL, Basically)
10 en, 1 cast, 30 reload
Elite Enchantment Spell. You have 50% maximum life and take 50% damage from all sources. When this ends, you are healed by X. Lasts Y seconds. (Death Magic)

Random Elite Skill Idea #3:
15 en, 1 cast, 20 reload
Elite Hex Spell. Target foe sacrifices X% life whenever it uses a skill. Lasts Y seconds. (Curses)

Random Elite Skill Idea #4:
20% sacrifice, 5en, 1/4 cast, 5 reload
Elite Enchantment Spell. The next time you summon a minion, it has extra maximum life equal to X% of the life you sacrificed in casting this spell. (Death Magic)

Random Elite Skill Idea #5: (Dark Aura Elite)
10 en, 1 cast, 20 reload
Elite Enchantment Spell. Whenever you sacrifice life, you deal X damage in an area around yourself.

Random Ressurection Skill Idea:
33% sacrifice, 10en, 3 cast, 0 reload
Spell. Ressurect target ally with X% life and Y% energy. (Soul Reaping)

A sacrifice ressurect skill makes so much sense it's silly. Keep it Soul Reaping so only Necromancers can really put it to any serious use. And with a sacrifice like that, you can't spam it or abuse it or you'll just wind up killing yourself. (Kind of like BiP, imagine that!)

So that's my big point. Bring back Necromancer utility, keep them with the same role that they used to always have. Quit bleeding them with Mesmers and Elementalists, make them their own class. Give them curses that supplement their own dynamics, give them minion spells that interact with their dynamics, don't make it so mindless! The current AotL is click-shoot-whee, no real thought required. (Okay, you have to count corpses, big deal) The skills I posted would provide so much interaction with their other spells it'd really open up a lot of strictly utility builds, and they're really just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to crazy interacting skills that'd give the Necromancer some real life. They'd really fit back into their niche utility/life stealing/quirky-hexer/minion role that they used to always have.

Anyways, this has been bothering me ever since they changed AotL and Cultist's in that December update, just felt like sharing and hoping that maybe that ANet people will actually read my thoughts. Thanks for reading this far and hearing me out.

Xenomortis · May 30, 2009, 05:12 PM // 17:12

You're obsessed with sacrifice and reversion of skills to their weaker forms. The idea of sacrificing health and then making it up with lifesteal may sound good in theory, but it never works out. No healer is going to let your health stay low for very long and it won't be long before they heal your sacrifice before you get a chance with the life steal.

The changes to some of these skills has had no effect on the profession as a whole because the original forms were almost completely unused. Vampiric Spirit may have been changed into something far more simplistic, but at least it became viable to actually use. The previous functionality was next to useless. Ok, I don't like it very much now as all it is is a weak lifesteal with some regeneration (which can cover up some small sacrifices).

Pain of Disenchantment used to be far too conditional to be of any use. An elite that only did something when you removed an enchantment? I do not want my elite to be something that only does a bit of damage on the side. I want my elite to be an important and powerful aspect of my build. The current functionality now sees use in PvP (well, it saw some).

Whilst it is a shame that the old mechanic behind AotL is now completely gone, it now serves as something more useful. Before, it was really just an elite you had because you hadn't anything else (from a PvE standpoint). It wasn't generally used to fuel sac builds, because sac builds are useless in PvE, all it really did was allow spamming of Blood of the Master.

I really have no idea what you're trying to get across. I note your comments refer to a style of play utilising Blood Magic and the blood magic line is weak for a reason. Seriously, look at the Curses line and then tell me what Necromancers are.

Rising_Dusk · May 30, 2009, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Nah, Necromancers aren't weak. I'm not actually complaining at all, more commenting on how they play. And I feel that the utility aspect of spells should be more prevalent in all of the attribute lines, it's just that blood magic takes it so well and curses needs a different approach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You're obsessed with sacrifice and reversion of skills to their weaker forms.

Nah, as a matter of fact I even mention that the skills I liked before are better now than they were before. It's the mechanics that I miss and the way they allowed interactions with other skills in the Necromancer (and other) lines. That's the sort of thing I miss.

Also, you shouldn't focus so much on the skills I used as examples, but rather on what exactly I'm trying to say. Regardless of whether old skills were virtually unused or not, it's the way they interact (or don't, really) now. I agree with all of your points that the new skills are better as they are, I had said that before too. I am merely saying that the skills could be better still, still balanced, and then fit the atmosphere and the feel of a necromancer better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I really have no idea what you're trying to get across.

I thought it was obvious, but perhaps not. I'd like to see more skills take advantage of sacrificing as a mechanic and interactive element (like Masochism, Dark Aura, old AotL) and less that function so directly as their new forms. It's irrelevant whether the skills are better now than they were before, my point lies with the feel of the skills. Maybe that's too abstract a concept for people to grasp, and if so I apologize, but that's where I'm coming from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Seriously, look at the Curses line and then tell me what Necromancers are.

While Curses are a substantial part of the Necromancer, there are 2 other attribute lines that just as much should be a part of the Necromancer's role. As effective as it is to spam Spiteful Spirit or Discord all day long on an enemy, it really is too cut and dry alone.

Archress Shayleigh · May 30, 2009, 06:37 PM // 18:37

You are obsessed with sacrifices... calm down m8, they buffed some elites. there are others you can use.

The Riven · May 30, 2009, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk

While Curses are a substantial part of the Necromancer, there are 2 other attribute lines that just as much should be a part of the Necromancer's role. As effective as it is to spam Spiteful Spirit or Discord all day long on an enemy, it really is too cut and dry alone.

Discord is in death and though while i and many others consider this to be massively overrated skill it does i assure you (along with the rest of the death line) see more than its fair share of use, you are also neglecting to take into consideration SR, the most powerful line in the game.

It seems to me your just upset that sacing is ineffectual and costly. its like that for a reason.

Onion Guy · May 30, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I would have to agree, sac to me has no use other then a bomb in JQ. I do miss the old AotL. I would like to see more use and utility of sac skills that can synergies with other skills. Also I think blood magic could use a few changes... it feels too much like C Space 123 Tab to me. There are no utility life steal skills I feel. Nothing that will steal life under x conditions or whatever (Yes I know there is soul leach but that is nothing compared to backfire and the other skills that work with it in domination magic like werstals worry or whatever, and that is not even an elite)

AtomicMew · May 31, 2009, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

Discord is in death and though while i and many others consider this to be massively overrated skill it does i assure you (along with the rest of the death line) see more than its fair share of use, you are also neglecting to take into consideration SR, the most powerful line in the game.

It seems to me your just upset that sacing is ineffectual and costly. its like that for a reason.

Discord is only played on heroes. Minions are good, but are also better on heroes. On players, it's always curses or singular roles in 8 man teams (e.g. orders).

Both Blood and Death need to be buffe in PvE so that they're actually used by players.

Moloch Vein · May 31, 2009, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Any job is better on a competent human than it is on a hero. It's just that when you decide to outsource a job to a hero, it's likely to be minions first, because they do a more than passable job with it.

Blood does need to be buffed in PvE for several of the spells. Death, not. Actually Blood needs to be completely redesigned with the life stealing mechanic reworked, for PvP as well as for PvE. Splitting OoV for PvE would be very appreciated.

upier · May 31, 2009, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk

Rip Enchantment Now
5en, 1 cast, 10 reload
Spell. Removes 1 enchantment. Removal effect: inflicts Bleeding (5...21...25 seconds).
Rip Enchantment Suggestion
10% sac, 5en, 1 cast, 4s reload
Spell. Removes 1 enchantment.

Lovely.

And here is another thought: Soul Reaping is still obscenely overpowered. Nerf it.

Xenomortis · May 31, 2009, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Both Blood and Death need to be buffe in PvE so that they're actually used by players.

So... you've never run Order of Undeath then? Whilst it isn't a fantasticly fun job at times, it's something I've done in groups of players. I like to think I do a better job of MMing than Whisper's could ever manage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk

I thought it was obvious, but perhaps not. I'd like to see more skills take advantage of sacrificing as a mechanic and interactive element (like Masochism, Dark Aura, old AotL) and less that function so directly as their new forms. It's irrelevant whether the skills are better now than they were before, my point lies with the feel of the skills. Maybe that's too abstract a concept for people to grasp, and if so I apologize, but that's where I'm coming from.

The sacrifice mechanic is quite haphazard and far from ideal in any PvX setting. Whilst it would be nice for such a mechanic to be powerfully viable, it won't ever be. From a practical point of view, it would be better if fewer skills utilised it or at least, utilised smaller sacrifices than they do now.

As the line that utilises sacrifices the most, the Blood Magic line does need looking at and I think it would be best if the majority of sacrfice skills remain there.

Rising_Dusk · May 31, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Practical, maybe, but that would be a tragedy. I'd like to see Anet phase out fewer mechanics in lieu of reliable balance (as they have been) and simply put in the effort to make them viable instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

As the line that utilises sacrifices the most, the Blood Magic line does need looking at and I think it would be best if the majority of sacrfice skills remain there.

Agreed, although I think a spattering of it elsewhere would be healthy as well. Just like how the Mesmer has access to target enemy exhaustion in Arcane Languor, I think a target enemy sacrifice would be awesome. (Even if it equates to just damage, it'd be a really cool feeling skill) It would also synergize quite satisfyingly with Scourge Sacrifice.

Einherj3r · May 31, 2009, 03:46 PM // 15:46

I can't agree more with the OP. Recent changes have taken away the fun from being what the Necromancer used to be. Now they're just another mindless spam class even in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Whilst it is a shame that the old mechanic behind AotL is now completely gone, it now serves as something more useful. Before, it was really just an elite you had because you hadn't anything else (from a PvE standpoint). It wasn't generally used to fuel sac builds, because sac builds are useless in PvE, all it really did was allow spamming of Blood of the Master.

Old Aura of the Lich, Vampiric Horror, Bone Horror, Blood of the Master = immortal minion wall.
Aura of the Lich was probably the best elite for Minion masters before Order of Undeath and Jagged Bones. And even then they dont really outshine the Aura in its field of use.

Just because it wasn't used by the generic PvE scrub doesn't mean it's not useful.

Voodoo Rage · Jun 01, 2009, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Einherj3r

I can't agree more with the OP. Recent changes have taken away the fun from being what the Necromancer used to be. Now they're just another mindless spam class even in PvP.

Spam? Never!

[build=OAVDUslXSTA2gfC3gxMKgVVylA]

bah, I guess the build code isn't working...

Xenomortis · Jun 01, 2009, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

Spam? Never!

[build=OAVDUslXSTA2gfC3gxMKgVVylA]

bah, I guess the build code isn't working...

Fragility
CoP
Weaken Armour
Necrosis
Discord
Putrid Bile
SolS
Pain Inverter

You know, if you lost Discord, took Fevered Dreams and lost any Death Magic investment; you'd end up with a stronger build that wasn't just spamming a few skills.

Actually, lose PI and Putrid Bile too and take YMLAD and Finish Him (Necrosis needs to go too).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Einherj3r

I can't agree more with the OP. Recent changes have taken away the fun from being what the Necromancer used to be. Now they're just another mindless spam class even in PvP.

The Blood Magic line was always a mindless spam skill line. The skills that were not of that nature were usually so weak, conditional or risky to be of any use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Einherj3r

Old Aura of the Lich, Vampiric Horror, Bone Horror, Blood of the Master = immortal minion wall.
Aura of the Lich was probably the best elite for Minion masters before Order of Undeath and Jagged Bones. And even then they dont really outshine the Aura in its field of use.

Hardly, in HM minions die in one or two nukes from the enemy and you cannot spam BotM fast enough to counter that. Sure, in NM you can usually maintain them, but you seldom need to.
And really, there wasn't a lot to choose before Jagged Bones, OoU and some unlinked elites that came out in NF. Flesh Golem was certainly useless.
Comparing OoU to the old AotL is silly - they perform different roles.

Einherj3r · Jun 01, 2009, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The Blood Magic line was always a mindless spam skill line. The skills that were not of that nature were usually so weak, conditional or risky to be of any use.

Yes. I remember the times when corpse control in the tombs was actually important. During that time Necros were a very fun to play class and had fun builds in every meta. They were underused in GvG, but they still are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Hardly, in HM minions die in one or two nukes from the enemy and you cannot spam BotM fast enough to counter that. Sure, in NM you can usually maintain them, but you seldom need to.
And really, there wasn't a lot to choose before Jagged Bones, OoU and some unlinked elites that came out in NF. Flesh Golem was certainly useless.
Comparing OoU to the old AotL is silly - they perform different roles.

It was just an example about how AotL could be used. I didn't say 'THATS YOUR VANQUISH WIN BUTTON'. Elite Skills must not be balanced around a single play style but around making the class viable in a variety of pve and pvp formats.

Voodoo Rage · Jun 02, 2009, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You know, if you lost Discord, took Fevered Dreams and lost any Death Magic investment; you'd end up with a stronger build that wasn't just spamming a few skills.

Actually, lose PI and Putrid Bile too and take YMLAD and Finish Him (Necrosis needs to go too).

Well that's the whole build gone!

Fevered Dreams is very nice so far. I've never tried that elite before. Pretty fun just laying down a mass of conditions down on a mob. Should I bring hypochondria too? I'll have to try it in a dungeon.

Thanks.

Rising_Dusk · Jun 02, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The Blood Magic line was always a mindless spam skill line. The skills that were not of that nature were usually so weak, conditional or risky to be of any use.

Conditional skills can be really fun because they require lots of planning to set up. Previous to the Cultist's Fervor update, one of my favorite Necromancer builds was Dark Aura/Cultist's Aura/Unholy Feast/Glyph of Swiftness/etc. It was really enjoyable blowing myself up to blow up enemies. So sure, the BM line really has been click-shoot-spam with some conditional stuff, but they're taking away all of our conditional stuff and turning blood magic into a mindless attribute line. I'd like to see it shifted towards utility, sacrifice interaction, and life stealing with some brainpower requirement. (Of course, still having its staples such as Vamp Gaze and so forth)

Shadowmere · Jun 03, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Hardly, in HM minions die in one or two nukes from the enemy and you cannot spam BotM fast enough to counter that. Sure, in NM you can usually maintain them, but you seldom need to.

I beg to differ there, if you're using a 40/40 death set BotM will cast/recharge faster often enough to overcome a lot of damage. This does mean you'll be more or less constantly spamming it (not the most ideal thing if you're also animating the minions on the fly too). But using an AotL BotM spammer build with a 4 MM team I had back before the AotL change I was able to keep minions alive long enough to start leveling up in HM. That being said the change to AotL also killed my MM team and I would very much like it back.

_Nihilist_ · Jun 06, 2009, 01:04 AM // 01:04

I used to use AotL on my Warrior to farm Trolls outside of Droknar's Forge... This was before ANet realized that AotL was bugged - if you recast AotL before it ran out, you still received the healing when it would have triggered from your first cast, and you'd still be under the effects of the 2nd AotL.

Good times, good times... no more...

Voodoo Rage · Jun 08, 2009, 12:50 AM // 00:50

BTW, thanks again for the Fevered Dreams build. I've been breezing through dungeons running:

[Fevered Dreams]
[Cry of Pain]
[YMLAD!]
[Enfeeble]
[Rip Enchantment] - meh, nothing seems to bleed anyway, so I can probably ditch this
[Signet of Lost Souls]
[Finish Him!]
[Barbs] - for those guys who STILL won't go down...

It's a tad energy intensive. I'm tempted to nix most of my curses points (Barbs is really the only spell that needs a lot of investment) and mix in an Inspiration interrupt or drain enchantment.